Breaking the Silence on Sexuality within the Orthodox Church

Open letter to OCA Holy Synod from college students and young adults

Published August 12, 2011 | By Joseph Clarke

August 12, 2011 — Martyr Anicetus of Nicomedia

To: Holy Synod of Bishops, Orthodox Church in America

From: 15 Orthodox college students and young adults

“Men and women with homosexual feelings and emotions are to be treated with the understanding, acceptance, love, justice and mercy due to all human beings.”

— 1992 Synodal Affirmations On Marriage, Family, Sexuality, and the Sanctity of Life, Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America

Your Beatitude, Your Eminence, Your Graces,

Though our Lord never condoned sin, He nonetheless ministered to the most vulnerable and marginal, reserving His public condemnations for those who victimized them. As Orthodox college students and young adults, we are writing to express our grave concerns about the state of public Orthodox discourse on a highly sensitive pastoral issue that especially affects young people in our Church. In the wake of a string of suicides by American students persecuted for their homosexuality — a tragic trend which has not left our Church untouched — our consciences do not permit us to ignore the language of revilement directed by some in the Church towards gay people.

On public and easily accessible Internet postings, Orthodox clergymen — including OCA priests — repeat disgusting and discredited theories about the etiology of same-sex attraction; liken gay people to “old perverted men who love little boys”; tell Orthodox Christians that homosexuality “should make our stomachs turn and make us vomit”; call for “spiritual warfare” against those in the Church who advocate a more restrained pastoral approach; and accuse those who speak up for gay people of being “homosexual activists,” publicly expressing hope that they will leave the Orthodox faith.

Words like this can inflict grave spiritual harm, as some of us know from personal experience. Fortunately, many Orthodox Christians who struggle to acknowledge, understand, and deal with homosexual feelings are blessed to encounter wise priests and laypeople who do not resort to abstract moral formulas but counsel them as individual persons. Such an approach was endorsed, we believe, by the Holy Synod’s 1992 affirmations. This is why we find the recent adoption by some in the Orthodox Church of overheated and destructive language from the current secular “culture wars” to be a dangerous departure from Orthodox pastoral tradition.

We disagree with those who favor rhetorical scapegoating of gay people in order for the Church to be “relevant” in the face of recent social and legal changes. It is certainly not our purpose to advocate for “homosexual rights” (none of us has a “right” to salvation), to question Orthodox doctrine, or to justify sinful behavior. Nevertheless, we cannot accept that the only alternative is purging the Church of gay people who, like the rest of us, are endeavoring to live the most godly life they are able to under the guidance of a spiritual advisor. Many for whom these issues are a daily reality are also integral members of our parishes, and their absence would do injury to the Body of Christ.

Modern society is replete with harmful ideologies and practices, including affirmations of debauchery and licentiousness as well as vilifications of virginity, marriage, and monogamy. In order for the Orthodox Church to be an effective voice calling the modern world to repentance, should we not speak first with love and moderation, and be willing to listen and learn as well as condemn? Absent this attitude, we fear that many young people will simply stop paying attention to Orthodox Christian moral witness at all.

Our faith compels us to undertake an earnest search for what is true and right, under the guidance of our hierarchs, theologians, and pastors. We implore you to help nurture a spirit of respectful, loving discourse about this issue on the Internet and in our dioceses.

In Christ,

Philip Abrahamson

Fordham University

Hilary Baboukis

Columbia University

Jessie Bartlett

College of the Rockies

Joy Bartlett

Creston, British Columbia

Alexis Boyd

George Washington University

Maria Christodoulou

Washington, D.C.

Joseph Clarke

Yale University

Matthew Gates

Cornell University

Kyriaki Anna Green

Columbia University

Edward-Seraphim Lacarte

Creston, British Columbia

Azanaw Mengistu

George Washington University

Kyra Powell

Ryerson University

Savannah Powell

Oregon State University

Katia Shtefan

Georgetown University

Natalie Sieglinde Stadnick

Duke University

Georgina Jones Suzuki

Boston University

Marc Teusink

Wayne State University

Stephanie E. Wever

Drexel University

Nicholas Sivulka Wheeler

University of Toronto
· · Report · September 5, 2011 at 10:52pm
- You, Xeres Villanueva, George Murphy, Rebecca Magaziner Matovic and 31 others like this.
- - John Congdon God bless you for your eloquance and courage!
    
    August 12, 2011 at 10:53am · · 4
  - Lewis Whitaker This is absolutely beautiful, Joseph. I think you’ve achieved the exact tone that’s needed here. Excellent work.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 10:54am · · 2
  - Inga Leonova Beautifully done.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 10:54am · · 2
  - Thomas Stama This is a wonderful letter. May God grant those addressed to show love and wisdom in their approaches to this subject.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 10:56am · · 2
  - Michael Plekon Many thanks for a thoughtful and humane and Christian statement.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 10:57am · · 1
  - Joseph Clarke ‎Charli, yes, you’ll have to copy & paste, or I can also send it to you as an e-mail. It’s not posted anywhere else currently.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 11:00am · · 1
  - Jennifer J. Wilson Just beautiful, thank you Joseph.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 11:01am · · 1
  - William Hood Magnificent, courageous, and beautifully written. How can the addressees not respond to such a letter?
    
    August 12, 2011 at 11:02am · · 1
  - Michael Berrigan Clark Have to join the chorus in congratulating all of you on creating this open letter. Masterful, pitch perfect.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 12:04pm · · 1
  - Juli Lundell Tarsney Are you inviting or accepting more signatures?
    
    August 12, 2011 at 12:27pm ·
  - Dave O’Neal I can’t imagine a statement more perfectly expressed than this one. A response is called for. Let’s publish this as widely as possible. Thank you, Joseph!
    
    August 12, 2011 at 12:37pm · · 3
  - Dave O’Neal And no anonymous signatories 🙂
    
    August 12, 2011 at 12:38pm · · 4
  - Charli Riggle I wonder about writing a similar letter from Orthodox parents and grandparents ….
    
    August 12, 2011 at 12:41pm · · 5
  - Juli Lundell Tarsney OPFLAG? PFOLAG? 🙂
    
    August 12, 2011 at 12:44pm · · 4
  - Alexander Ivsky WOW-EXCELLENT JOB. You ALL should be commended! AXIOS!
    
    August 12, 2011 at 12:46pm · · 1
  - Joseph Clarke Thank you all! It was very much a group effort. The letter has already been sent to the bishops, but we hope others who agree with our plea will also write to them. Charli, that’s a brilliant idea! I think a letter like that could make a real difference.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 12:57pm via mobile · · 4
  - John Bostwick articulate and needed!
    
    August 12, 2011 at 12:59pm ·
  - Christopher Westrate Thank you so much Joseph (and friends) for putting into words what I’ve felt so strongly. Beautifully written, and respectful of all involved. (Deacon Christopher Westrate)
    
    August 12, 2011 at 1:02pm · · 5
  - Dave O’Neal Am sitting her discussing Charli’s idea with my partner, who suggests actually contacting PFLAG, which might be able to put out a call to it’s Orthodox members, who might then be able to unite behind a similar statement of their own.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 1:03pm · · 3
  - Stephen Iannaccone To all the group members who signed this (as well as none group members) –well done; I do hope you receive an enlightened response.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 1:09pm · · 2
  - Joseph Clarke Nicholas Sivulka Wheeler was especially instrumental in making this letter happen, and deserves our thanks.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 1:56pm via mobile · · 6
  - Joseph Clarke Charli and Dave: “The entreaty of a mother has great power to win the favor of the master.”
    
    August 12, 2011 at 1:57pm via mobile · · 1
  - Juli Lundell Tarsney In terms of parents and grandparents, I think it’s important for people to know that there are parents and grandparents who care about this whether or not their own children or grandchildren are gay/lesbian; we care because we care about young people generally and in our parishes, our children’s friends, any child or teenager who is hurting.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 2:09pm · · 8
  - Charli Riggle ‎Juli is absolutely right.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 2:16pm ·
  - Lewis Whitaker ‎….and there are people who AREN’T parents who care about this issue. In other words, a lot of us care, deeply, about this. Let’s make this happen.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 2:25pm · · 1
  - Chuck Bradley Wow. This statement/letter was so eloquently worded. Good job to you, Joseph Clarke, and all who participated.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 3:14pm ·
  - Karen Summers Thanks, Joseph, and everyone who helped craft this wonderful letter!
    
    August 12, 2011 at 3:38pm · · 1
  - William Hood Joseph, I wonder if it mightn’t be a good idea to keep the signature list open, but *only* to OCA members, and *only* to people under 35. It’s important for many reasons that the letter represent precisely what it says it does, namely, a request by young adults in the OCA.
    
    August 12, 2011 at 3:40pm · · 1
  - Stephen Montgomery I agree William…this is a prophetic moment and I don’t want this opportunity to be missed..of coarse under 35 leaves me out but I support their efforts
    
    August 13, 2011 at 6:02am · · 1
  - Joseph Clarke Since we posted this yesterday, a few more young people have come forward and asked if they could add their names. We’re not going out of our way to solicit more signatures — we’re not running a political campaign and this isn’t a petition — but if any additional OCA members under 35 years old want their names included, please do let me know before Wednesday, when I plan to send hard copies of the letter to the bishops.
    
    August 13, 2011 at 4:23pm ·
  - Harold Tiche Are the html links missing from the posted document? Is there a copy of the original that includes the missing html links? Thanks. Very well written.
    
    August 13, 2011 at 6:24pm · · 2
  - Joseph Clarke Thanks Harold! That means a lot. And thanks for letting me know about the broken links; I think I’ve fixed them now.
    
    August 13, 2011 at 7:02pm ·
  - Stephen Iannaccone ‎Joseph Clarke has this been sent to the members of the synod of OCA yet?
    
    August 13, 2011 at 8:27pm ·
  - Natalie Sieglinde Stadnick ‎Stephen Iannaccone yes – it has been in email form… hard copy is to follow soon.
    
    August 13, 2011 at 8:35pm · · 2
  - Rebecca Magaziner Matovic Beautiful, perfect.
    
    August 14, 2011 at 5:43am ·
  - Stephen Montgomery I am anxious to see what response you get
    
    August 14, 2011 at 5:51am ·
  - William Hood Joseph, has there been *any* negative response from *any* quarter so far?
    
    August 14, 2011 at 11:13am ·
  - Joseph Clarke No — no response at all yet, except some inquiries from more young people asking us to include their names.
    
    August 14, 2011 at 12:32pm · · 1
  - Stephen Montgomery your letter was just posted on the Orthodox Forum on Yahoo groups..the comments pay be interesting and ,probably,some will be painful
    
    August 14, 2011 at 7:43pm ·
  - Stephen Iannaccone can you give the url for the orthodox forum? Thanks
    
    August 14, 2011 at 10:39pm ·
  - Stephen Iannaccone http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orthodox-Forum/
    
    Orthodox-Forum : Orthodox-Forum
    
    groups.yahoo.com
    
    Orthodox-Forum: Orthodox-Forum
    
    August 14, 2011 at 10:50pm ·
  - George Murphy Absolutely Amazing! I’ll chat it up in the GOA youth in our denomination. I work with Greater Boston PFLAG, I’ll see if i can pull up any names there. Metropolitan Methodios has already come out publicly against LGBT folk, It’s long overdue something is done.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 12:18am · · 1
  - George Murphy Additionally, anyone interested in responding to the SCOBA document with a similar letter.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 12:22am ·
  - Joseph Clarke Thank you, George. My impression is that some of the vilest language is coming from Antiochian (convert) priests. But I don’t really have my finger on the pulse of AOCANA and I’m doubtful that a letter like this would do any good there.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 3:06pm · · 1
  - William Hood There are already some mean-spirited comments on the Orthodox Forum. I was gong to answer them, but on second thought I just gave up. People who spin instantly into irrational anger are not interested in the possibility that they may want to change their minds. It is so, so sad.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 3:08pm · · 2
  - Lewis Whitaker I had to leave those forums for just that reason, William. It’s oftentimes best just to let people stew in the juices of their own prejudice. When they’re at that point they won’t listen to reason. It is sad.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 3:10pm · · 1
  - William Hood Thanks for the comfort, Lewis. In my inmost self, I think there’s something more sinister going on than simple prejudice, however corrosive it may be. I have been a member of the Orthodox Forum for less than twenty-four hours, but I think I’m going to quit it. There’s nothing I can contribute to it that will bring any peace or desire for reconciliation; there’s nothing I can say to loosen the sting of moralistic pietism. I have nothing to offer from my own experience of being carefree in the Holy Spirit to people who seem to worship religion itself, rather than God. Worst of all, it makes me begin to feel sad to be Orthodox. (Of course, I’d feel that way no matter what Church I was in!) The point is that it isn’t worth the price of my peace of mind to jump into that slime pit and duke it out with people — even priests! — who actually seem to enjoy slathering themselves with it.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 3:22pm · · 5
  - Lewis Whitaker I fear that you’re right. I had to get out for my own sanity (and salvation). I’d follow that still small voice that says “leave!” And don’t, under ANY circumstances, join the “Indiana List.”
    
    August 15, 2011 at 3:29pm · · 2
  - Rebecca Magaziner Matovic I’ve stuck it out through thick and thin there over the years, but recently gave up — I did go back to support this letter, but the ugliness is just too much. It may not be all we need to know, but truth is beauty.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 3:31pm · · 5
  - Inga Leonova
    
    The problem with open forums and blog comments is the same as with unmoderated live gatherings (I always mention London’s Hyde Park as an example) – the loudest, the most aggressive voices always end up drowning the voices of measured reaso…n. Facebook is a lot better as a forum than most others simply by virtue of absence of anonymity – unless people create elaborate fake identities here (which has been known to happen, but is quite rare), at least there are faces to go with words, unlike other online forums. However, even here we encounter the same problems of lack of mutual respect, and lack of simple culture of public debate.
    
    Speaking for myself, I have learned long ago that there are plenty of situations where no dialogue is possible or advisable. Yes, perhaps it limits the witnessing; but I think prudence must be exercised in the online world. There is a price to pay for entering into a conversation with interlocutors whose overreaching purpose is not to converse but to demolish the opponent – and the price is not just the elevated blood pressure but, more seriously and more destructively, the provoking of one’s interlocutor into mounting an ever-uglier and toxic string of arguments.
    
    See More
    
    August 15, 2011 at 3:42pm · · 3
  - Alexander Ivsky Hi Rebecca, I’ve wondered what happened to your voice of reason since I’d gotten very used to reading your well-written posts.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 3:43pm ·
  - Lewis Whitaker Inga: You make an excellent point re: facebook. It’s hard to yell too loudly at someone when he has such cute pictures of kitties on his profile.
    
    I have a theory that the Internet has done the exact opposite of what we thought it would back in the old days. Rather than make it easier for people to communicate on the big issues, it has made it harder. And sometimes the best thing to do is to gracefully bow out.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 3:51pm · · 2
  - Rebecca Magaziner Matovic ‎Alexander — I’ve also been on vacation for 3 weeks with very limited internet. I’ll probably get tempted back in because somehow (in a way I’m not at all proud of or entirely comfortable with) rough and tumble debate pulls me in.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 3:54pm ·
  - Inga Leonova ‎Rebecca: I acknowledge this as bias, but I honestly don’t see the point. No offense to Bill Samsonoff, but the tone of discourse on OF has deteriorated to such a degree in the last couple of years that to interject reasonable arguments into a torrent of slime only seems to serve to intensify the torrent.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 3:56pm ·
  - Stephen Montgomery
    
    I am still a member of the Orthodox Forum and I refuse to leave and I won’t leave…I know you guys are probably sick of me bringing this up but my great grandmother and grandmother hid jews from the germans during WWII..my grandmother once… after a few gin and tonics told me that Mother Maria brought a jewish woman to my greatgrandmother’s flat and said “Be Christ to this poor soul”…and that is what I try to do and usually utterly fail…to be Christ to the Orthodox Forum in my usually poorly written posts…It is better to light just one little candle then to curse the darkSee More
    
    August 15, 2011 at 5:27pm · · 1
  - Stephen Montgomery never forget my brothers and sisters..The tomb was empty
    
    August 15, 2011 at 5:28pm ·
  - William Hood
    
    Rebecca, two things occur to me. First, “rough and tumble debate” is one thing. But a shouting match is not a debate: it’s just shouting. Second, I wonder what would happen to stone-throwers if there were nobody in the middle of the circ…le. That is, if rational, even merely *polite,* people were simply to absent themselves from places such as OF and Listening?, whom would they have to be angry at, to feel superior to, to judge? I do understand, I think, Stephen’s point: don’t let them push you around. But I have learned after a life-long career with these campaigns to choose my battles. I don’t have the energy or the ammunition for full-scale warfare anymore. More important, I don’t have the heart for it unless I can clearly see that something good will come out of all that Sturm und Drang.See More
    
    August 15, 2011 at 10:09pm · · 3
  - Harold Tiche There has been a response because apparently one of the links in the letter referred to comments by the author:
    
    http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2011/08/response-to-open-letter-on.html
    
    Fr. John Whiteford’s News, Comments, & Reflections: A Response to an Open Letter on Homosexuality
    
    fatherjohn.blogspot.com
    
    August 15, 2011 at 10:09pm ·
  - Inga Leonova ‎Harold, thank you for the link. I would like to make one request to anyone who want to engage Fr. John Whiteford in a dialogue: please don’t use this group for that purpose since he is not a member here and cannot respond to comments. In addition to his own blog, Fr. John is a member of the Yahoo Orthodox Forum, and also posts in the Listening? FB group, and on Monomakhos and AOI blogs.
    Thank you.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 10:16pm ·
  - Inga Leonova The above post was not intended to shut down all conversation on that article. Just please keep in mind that the author cannot respond here.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 10:18pm ·
  - William Hood I have withdrawn from OF for the simple reason that I don’t want to associate with most of the people, lay and clergy, who post there. Furthermore, I expect the feeling is mutual. So we’re all happy.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 10:23pm · · 1
  - William Hood Forgot to mention that Fr John’s words convinced me. I couldn’t finish reading them.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 10:23pm · · 1
  - Lewis Whitaker Discretion is the better part of valour, William. And you’ve got the valour down pat!
    
    Fr. John describes himself as “to the right of Atilla the hun” politically, which is an odd way for a priest to define his politics. I only skimmed his words, and that was enough.
    
    August 15, 2011 at 10:25pm · · 3
  - Stephen Iannaccone
    
    Hang on tight all because this is gonna be a bumpy ride. (Misquotation from “All About Eve.” ) I am not the most religious person in the world–but I do accept what Jesus says so clearly in the “Sermon on the Mount.” Blessed are people who …are persecuted for the sake of the Truth. What I have been reading elsewhere and hearing in response to great courage by these students comes as close to persecution, perhaps not as those before us have experienced. Be patient and trust in God! Believe that the time is coming–we don’t know when,–when Jesus will come to divide us in the sheep on the right and the goats on the left. I hope I and you are always striving to clothe, feed, help and honor those who feel neglected and are unloved. That’s where, in a manner of speaking, the rubber hits the road. No one in these groups whatever they say can separate you from the love of God for which Mary became the Theotokos and for her obedience and love she is the queen of all.See More
    
    August 16, 2011 at 1:11am · · 1
  - Stephen Montgomery ‎”to the right of Atilla the Hun”….I’d rather have Christ as the role model for my politics..
    
    August 16, 2011 at 4:06am · · 2
  - Dave O’Neal Re Whiteford letter: His assertion “When you can’t deal with the substance of an issue, complaining about the tone of those you can’t answer will do, in a pinch.” This is like saying Christ confronted the Pharisees because of their “tone.”
    
    August 16, 2011 at 5:15am · · 5
  - Juli Lundell Tarsney Everything is treated as a challenge to authority that has to be slapped down and refuted. So much defensive and ritualized posturing … and I’m talking about several responses/comments I’ve seen online, not just this one.
    
    August 16, 2011 at 8:14am · · 5
  - Joseph Clarke There sure does seem to be some instinctive defensiveness in the responses! Our letter did not address Church doctrine, so I’m not sure what our critics hope to “refute” with their Patristic citations. The thrust of what we wrote is that when most gay people hear the rhetoric in question coming from Orthodox clerics, it does not sound like Christian love (“tough” or otherwise). Can anyone really dispute this point?
    
    August 16, 2011 at 3:09pm · · 2
  - Haralambos Ventis
    
    One problem that I can anticipate in the “Christian love” approach to gay people is that acceptance of same-sex unions, however committed and decent, will be refuted precisely in the name of “love,” whose duty (it will be argued) it is to p…oint out “error” and “sin,” gently but forthrightly, for the enlightenment of gay people themselves, i.e. love demands that gays be shown the error of their ways, etc. I think it is maybe about time for serious theologians and other informed and concerned Christians, to indicate that any Church that excludes gay people from its normativity, operates with a false and thus unsustainable (in view of modern knowledge) anthropology, period.See More
    
    August 16, 2011 at 5:18pm · · 2
  - Joseph Clarke
    
    Haralambos, I agree with you — some will try to make the case that gay people need to be shown the error of their ways for the salvation of their own souls. But it’s hard to argue that this sort of “tough love” approach is working when tee…nagers are committing suicide because they’re harassed about their sexuality.
    
    I suspect many people are scared of the specter of moral relativism. They’re afraid that if same-sex relationships are accepted as normative for gay people and placed on an equal footing with opposite-sex relationships, the Church’s authority to distinguish right from wrong will be permanently impaired.
    
    I don’t agree with that view, but I wonder whether it’s necessary for us to go that far. What if we concede that homosexuality is “less than the ideal”? Will most Orthodox Christians really conclude that it’s better to launch gay Christians into a never-ending cycle of “falls” and repentance — effectively to encourage promiscuity and self-loathing at the same time — than to accept the formation of stable, committed, loving relationships? I’m sure many do hold this view today, but eventually it is going to change.
    
    Unfortunately, such change may not happen until people see a lot more evidence of the kind of spiritual damage that this approach causes.
    
    See More
    
    August 16, 2011 at 5:47pm ·
  - Charli Riggle ‎Joseph, we already have the example of this approach with second marriages. The church eventually recognized that, for some people, even though it’s less than the ideal, it’s the best they can do, and the best thing for their salvation.
    
    August 16, 2011 at 6:02pm · · 3
  - Haralambos Ventis
    
    I hear you, Joseph, but I am afraid that any concession to the effect that homosexuality is “less than the ideal,” although wisely modest, will not have an impact, end of the day, because it doesn’t compel conservatives to reconsider in ter…ms of, say, demonstrated prior error. Cultural relativism is definitely a concern, and I believe that I convey the general sentiment of everyone here in saying that sincere Christians challenging the negative Chrurch stereotype of homosexuality are not moral relativists. It could be argued, on the other hand, that while not every lifestyle is acceptable from an Orthodox viewpoint, homoexual orientation is not a lifestyle but an intrinsic aspect of one’s being and so must be accommodated as such; for otherwise, a huge chunk of God’s deliberate creation is forced out of the Church, unless forced to live on false premises. I’d say that a false anthropology may wel cast serious doubt on our theology as well: if shown that we’re functioning with an incomplete or twisted view of the human race, what guarantees have we got that we “got things right” in regards to God? Theo-logy and anthropo-logy stand or fall together, and this tenet must begin to make inroads in the Church’s collective mindset. Anything less will not do, I am afraid.See More
    
    August 16, 2011 at 6:03pm · · 5
  - Joseph Clarke
    
    ‎”If shown that we’re functioning with an incomplete or twisted view of the human race, what guarantees have we got that we ‘got things right’ in regards to God?”
    
    I think many people on the other “side” of this discussion are currently par…alyzed by exactly that fear, Haralambos. The question is: if theology and anthropology are connected, as you say (and I agree), how is it possible to mend the latter without jeopardizing the former?See More
    
    August 16, 2011 at 6:20pm ·
  - Haralambos Ventis
    
    Well, my response would be that our faith (the whole set, comprised of theology & anthropology alike) is thoroughly apophatic, i.e. inexhaustible and by necessity always incomplete. If it’s taken Orthodox Christians hundreds of years to pro…gressively formulate our perception of God, while still insisting on the partial (if real) character of it, we should likewise explore anthropology with an open mind and think of our understanding of it as at present incomplete and subject to revision, where necessary. The key words here are, apophaticism and eschatology, the latter pointing to the refreshment of history, culture, and even biology, under the guiding hand of the Holy Spirit.See More
    
    August 16, 2011 at 6:53pm · · 5
  - Haralambos Ventis Anyway, just a few thoughts off the top of my head 🙂
    
    August 16, 2011 at 6:54pm ·
  - Inga Leonova
    
    Discussion of homosexuality is inseparable from the discussion of the theology of human relationships at large, and from the continuation of the work that has been done over the 20th century on the theology of gender and theology of marriag…e. All of it goes together. What is interesting is that 2,000 years into our history we are essentially having the same arguments as throughout those 2,000 years. The perception of a woman as an inferior “model” of a human being, well-articulated by St. Gregory of Nyssa, has never quite gone away. The perception of sexuality as an attribute of a fallen human condition hasn’t, either.See More
    
    August 16, 2011 at 8:14pm · · 2
  - Lewis Whitaker I think you’re right, Inga, and you can see this in some of the disciplinary manuals (what are these called?) The “passive” partner was always punished more than the “active” one. It was considered demeaning for a man to be in the “passive” role, because it was “womanly.”
    
    August 16, 2011 at 8:17pm ·
  - William Hood
    
    While I follow with great sympathy the most recent postings, I wonder if the discussion hasn’t strayed a little from what I took to be the primary burden of this letter. As Joseph pointed out today, nowhere do the signatories challenge the…ological opinion. What I thought they were asking is that the bishops sit down and figure out how to *minister* to gay and lesbian Orthodox Christians in the OCA. As somebody pointed out a few comments above, a homosexual *identity* is not commensurate with homosexual *acts.* Otherwise, there would be no point in the Church’s instructing lay people to live in perpetual celibacy. The detractors on the other websites seem deliberately to have overlooked or passed over this point, and we ourselves need to exercise the discipline not to fall into conflating sexual identity with sexual activity. I think we would be wise to concentrate on what is possible, here and now. As I see it, working towards a modest but immensely important alteration in the Church’s hierarchical pastoral attitude is a realistic goal. Asking for recognition of same-sex relationships, etc., is not only unrealistic. It is guaranteed to create even more dissension and resistance than we have on our hands at this moment.See More
    
    August 16, 2011 at 8:57pm · · 3
  - Inga Leonova I agree with William and appreciate the reminder. I was going to suggest that the topic of theology was taken up in a separate thread but forgot, and ended up getting engaged in the conversation. Sorry. 😉
    
    August 16, 2011 at 9:04pm ·
  - Haralambos Ventis I sincerely regret disagreeing with Bill on this one. Ministering to gay and lesbian Orthodox Christians will only lead to gentler voices telling them that they must abstain for their own good, for their own salvation—i.e., to a subtler, more pc affirmation of the inherent sinfulness of homosexuality. plus the self-righteous gloat that “we at least are not bigots.”
    
    August 17, 2011 at 9:40am · · 1
  - William Hood
    
    Haralambos, I’d disagree with Bill, too, if I thought that what he’d suggested was a kind of goal. It isn’t. What I suggested is merely a first step. I suggest it because I think (a) it’s badly needed and (b) it’s realistic. If the past…oral care should turn out to be careless, there will be plenty of us to monitor that. But if the bishops should decide to face this issue at the parish level, they have to start with something; and I think they will quickly realize that sweetly saying, “There, there” will be insufficient. Once the process of their actually *discussing* how to help further the theosis of their self-identified gay and lesbian faithful is underway, we can look for and encourage further development. I would like to see something *begin,* and would be very pleased if you or Dave had another goal that you think we could reach — or at least work towards.See More
    
    August 17, 2011 at 10:03am · · 2
  - Inga Leonova
    
    ‎@Haralambos: I agreed with Bill’s comment that the theology of the issue deserves a separate thread rather than for the discussion to be buried in this one.
    
    Moreover, the letter implores our bishops to address the un-pastoral conduct whic…h is becoming alarmingly common in our Church, and it is doing that in the wake of several recent incidents of disciplinary action and denial of communion. As Bill said, we have to start somewhere.
    
    IngaSee More
    
    August 17, 2011 at 10:18am via · · 2
  - Stephen Iannaccone any response from the addresees?
    
    September 5, 2011 at 10:48pm ·
  - Joseph Clarke No, after 3 1/2 weeks there’s been no response.
    
    September 5, 2011 at 10:53pm ·
  - William Hood Why am I not surprised?
    
    September 6, 2011 at 11:24am ·
  - Inga Leonova I don’t think anyone is, Bill. It is hardly news that our hierarchs, with one notable exception, don’t think that responding to their parishioners is part of our conciliar structure. Writing encyclicals is how they seem to see their communicating responsibility.
    
    September 6, 2011 at 2:24pm · · 1
  - Matthew Gates
    
    Despite the lack of an official response, I’ve had several people mention to me that they’ve read it and that it. Although responses weren’t universally positive, all said that it was well-written (for which most of the credit goes to Jos…eph), offered in a sincere spirit, and should generate productive conversation. I really feel it’s something we can point to has having elevated the conversation and provoked some thought.See More
    
    September 17, 2011 at 4:10pm · · 2
  - John Burnett ‎”Although responses weren’t universally positive, all said that it was well-written”— wouldn’t that be a sterling example of “damning with faint praise”?
    
    September 25, 2011 at 2:05am ·
  - Dave O’Neal Yeah, I hate that. “Well-written” usually means “nice” condemnation.
    
    September 25, 2011 at 5:50am ·
  - Matthew Gates
    
    Maybe so, but I really really think it did give some people pause to think about the way things are said. I agree that there are often a lot of meaningless caviats before very hateful diatribes (“we ought to love gay people and we’re all s…inner, but here’s why they’re terrible”). I really do think that, in some small way, this may have given someone occasion to think about this from a different perspective, even if it didn’t substantively change their minds. Although I had very little role in writing it, I think it does a good job of addressing people who are in different stages of developing their thoughts on this issue.See More
    
    September 25, 2011 at 7:22am · · 3
  - Stephen Montgomery
    
    I am starting to think that this issue is starting to look like those that troubled the early Church..do new Christians have to be circumcised,keep the Moseratic Laws,sacrifice in the Temple,while the temple was still standing ..AD 70 and T…itus took care of that….its very real…can gay people be part of the Church?..its very difficult to ferret out the issues,,,the Epistles,The Rudder,Holy Tradition ,Gay Rights and in America that pesky document called the Constitution which says that all men are created equal..this is all further complicated by the issues of closeted gay clergy and converts who came to Orthodoxy because their previous churches legitamized gay people..gay people are not going away…look at history and not through the eyes that need to whitewash the truthSee More
    
    September 25, 2011 at 7:53am · · 1
  - Inga Leonova
    
    ‎Matthew: I am afraid I don’t share your optimism. The very least the bishops could do, considering the letter was signed by a number of people, was to at least contact those of the signatories who were in their respective dioceses and ackn…owledge the receipt of the letter. They didn’t have to do much more than that, and yet even that hadn’t happened. I have to give credit to His Beatitude, he did have his assistant write back to me back in January. And although it was essentially a bureaucratic and not terribly meaningful response, it was at least personal and a sign of some civility. I find this outward lack of any consideration quite troubling.See More
    
    September 25, 2011 at 7:32pm ·
  - Inga Leonova ‎Stephen: You know, the Constitution which says that “all men are created equal” meant exactly that at the time it was written – men (not women); and moreover, implicitly, white men. So… I am not sure it’s the best document for the Church to consider. Genesis 1 would do much better: you know, that little bit about being created in the image and likeness of God? ;-))
    
    September 25, 2011 at 7:34pm · · 1
  - Stephen Montgomery and those white men also had to own property….I’m using the Constitution the way it is read now which as you know includes men and women and all races…
    
    September 26, 2011 at 3:50am ·
  - Inga Leonova ‎@Stephen: the text “We hold those truths self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights,” etc., is the second paragraph in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. I cannot attach a link to the text on my phone, but you can google it. Steve Iannacone is right.
    
    October 1, 2011 at 9:47am via mobile ·
  - Stephen Montgomery and your point is?
    
    October 2, 2011 at 6:42am ·
  - Inga Leonova Just confirming the facts. BTW, if you are interested, there was a lively and fascinating discussion in this group about Humanist vs. Christian values a few weeks ago (related to something Fr. John McGuckin said in a lecture at Holy Cross).
    
    October 2, 2011 at 7:30am ·
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